Eric and Paul speak to Sye Ten Bruggencate about the churches that seem to allow atheism indirectly within their walls. In the show, Pen Teller, atheist illusionist and broadcaster, is challenged to a debate by Sye.
the following program is made possible by the friends and partners of God quest ministries from the C T N studio in Pensacola florida. This is creation today where we believe the bible is literally true and scientifically accurate in every detail. I’m one of your hosts, eric Hoven and I’m paul taylor. And on today’s show we’ll be answering questions on the bible and also we’ll be exposing a master illusionists, greatest trick showing at a church near you. Yeah, our guest today is site and burden of proof that God exists dot org. And on the show, you plan on challenging this illusionist to a debate. I can’t wait to check that out right after this joining us for another episode of Creation Today is sides and burden kate from proof that God exists dot org. A native of Canada and we’re pleased to have you in the studio. Thanks for coming in. Glad to be here because we had to sign on the program a little while ago. That’s right. A couple of weeks ago actually here, it’s the real deal. However, instead of on the little screen and yeah, I think you look better on the little screen personally. But the site has been a great friend of the ministry, cy and myself did a cd and audio cd that we put together recently called, think and it’s what everyone knows about God. And if you haven’t checked that out, I’d encourage you to go to where could they get this at stores, that they can create a creation story of creation store dot org would be a great place to get that right there. So if you want to get think what everyone knows about God I’d encourage you to check that out. That’d be great. Also of course uh Man this is turning into a hot item, the unbelievable debate series. If you have not heard this. Uh It’s a debate series of three debates that sided with paul baird of the U. K. And it started a little over a year ago and did a series of three debates wow you like this one too, don’t you? Yeah they explained the apologetic quite well and they show what happens when an atheist encounters a biblical apologetic. The biblical way to argue for God’s existence to defend your faith. It really I mean I don’t mean to be rude or cruel to paul baird but wow he really gets the floors mopped with him, no doubt about it. It’s it’s really bad thing I stress too is that we have to keep in mind except for the grace of God that were in his shoes. So we have to pray for paul and pray for people who defend their faith in such a manner. And he did give us permission, right? You remember that he gave us permission to pray for him. So paul baird he did on an early on the early debate he said no and then on the actual televised debate he changed his mind. Yeah. So if you end up getting this it’ll come with three C. D. S along with the DVD of the debate that we did right here on the show that I just found absolutely fascinating is he would not defend his own worldview. He kept jumping around the other worldviews. I found that interesting then to top that off, you can go to Creation today dot org and you’ll find a conversation that cy and myself kind of got plopped into, got invited into but they recorded the conversation and it really is a follow up. It’s really round four of this three part debate called Unbelievable. And you can check that out on Creation today dot org or at your website you’ve got it posted there, right proof that God exists dot org. Just navigate to the multimedia page and you can find that exchange, man, I’m telling you it really is really is good stuff. Okay, um so a couple different things that are available there, we said at the introduction that you wanted to challenge this illusionist to a debate, you said this is his the greatest trick and you want to expose what that trick is on this show? That’s right now, I want to ask you a question eric if you profess atheism, do you think it would be possible for you to get into churches and tell people that there is no God. So a way for me to ask a pastor to let a pastor. And what do you think paul? Well it sounds very unlikely that I don’t think that would have, would have thought that churches would be wanting people to believe that there is a garden. I can understand maybe in certain circumstances where they were putting that down and and they were really exposing the truth like what we’re gonna do here, but just somebody to come in and preach there is no God, no, I can’t imagine that. Now, there’s a fellow who actually um christians and churches asked permission to post his video in their churches and he’s telling people that there is no god. Now you’d think that would be a great trick, wouldn’t you? That’d be a really good trick. Well eric I give you penn Jillette, that’s exactly what he’s done. Penn Jillette, if you don’t know, was approached by a believer and handed him a bible after one of his shows and penn made a video about this conversation that he had and said he was really deeply touched by it and it really moved him. But in the video he professes his atheism and says, I know there is no god that’s right and christians are being duped. I think this is his greatest trick because what first of all what he’s saying is that there is no god and of course we’ve discussed on this show previously that everybody knows that God exists. That’s exactly right and and then other respect to, I think it’s kind of patronizing because can you imagine somebody saying, well, if you really believe in santa claus, you should be putting milk and cookies out for him, or if you really believe in the tooth fairy, you should be putting your teeth under the pillow. And that’s relating Christianity to that isn’t that’s right. And not only that he’s getting this message into churches. And I watched the video later on where he actually, he’s happy about a woman who saw this video in a church, went and looked at some of this material and started doubting the existence of God now. And I think that is his trick, that he’s he’s telling people that this is a good thing that christians are doing so that they love his message? They put it in their churches and people actually pursue what he’s saying? And they start to doubt God, there is a logical fallacy isn’t there? Called bait and switch, which is, in a sense what he’s doing because to some people he would appear to be giving a nice honest open argument. But what you’re saying is that there is something deeper behind that, that people really should spot if they just stop and think. And the trouble is so often, unfortunately, christians do not always stop and think, I mean, why would why would a church want to use this video? I think it’s probably because there’s a place in the, in the, in the video clip where he’s talking about the attitude of a christian who doesn’t want to evangelize or if he keeps putting it proselytizing, I think that’s what christians perhaps are picking up on. Did you want to to comment on on on that bit that that he’s saying if a christian believes that there’s a God believes that there’s a heaven and a hell, and that an atheist is going to hell, then, you know, if they don’t actually share their faith, then they must really hate that person. And I think that is perhaps the bit that the churches are picking up on. So that’s why why is that not okay for the churches to to talk? Well, that’s the bait. And he looks like a very reasonable kind man. And actually, you know, I’ve seen some of this stuff and apart from the vulgarity and apart from the blasphemy, I think that I could get along with Pen quite well, but I’ve seen some of his stuff and what he does, he gets this into the church’s makes it look like he’s a friendly fellow, but then he slides in the there is no God, he makes a definitive statement. So people start to like him. People start to cozy up to what he’s saying, and then he throws in this there is no God, and I think that he wants to seed doubt into them. So, you brought a clip about that, right, Right, okay, so you’ve got a clip and this is penn saying there is no God. And this is something that’s being shown in churches All right, Let’s take a look at that clip. No, I know there’s no God and one polite person living his life, right, doesn’t change that. So here in churches pin is saying, I know that there is no God, Is that true? Absolutely not. We know from Romans one that everybody knows that God exists now. Keep in Mind. Pen is an illusionist. So this is his biggest trick. It’s it’s it’s incredible really that the church would want to do that and and want to have this there. But they’re doing it because they haven’t really thought through the issues and that’s the sort of thing that you’re trying to to challenge them on it. Exactly. I want to expose this. And he does this on multiple occasions with lots of videos saying, look, I appreciate what you’re doing and you should be doing it and relating it to. It’s just the marketplace of ideas. This is what happens out there in the marketplace. Everybody presents their ideas. But he’s assuming of course that his is right and that ours is wrong and he’s preaching that in the church. All right. Well, I know you got a challenge for Pen, We’ll take you and let you present that challenge to him right after this. Mhm, wow. Yeah. A Yeah, yeah, mm hmm. Yeah, everyone’s asking questions about our economic crisis and God gave us the answers. 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God Economics teaches a biblical worldview on liberty, Generosity and free market capitalism visit God ergonomics dot com today welcome back, you’re watching Creation today with me, paul taylor and eric Hovan and our special guest for today Cy 10 Bruggen cate Now we were looking just before the break at the greatest illusionary trick of the master illusionist penn Jillette and how he is getting into churches a a video that actually states there is no God and I know that we’ve got some things to say about that and say you’re going to be particularly wanting to say something about that and you had something Yeah, I know sai you wanted to to challenge pin specifically here. I have really enjoyed the debates that you’ve done the unbelievable debate you did with paul baird. And so if Pen is watching this, I’d encourage him to to check that out because you can actually expose the trick, pull the mask off, so to speak from what he is saying he believes to what he really believes and I’d encourage people who are watching this to actually tweet pen to send this to pen because I’d really like to talk to him and offer this challenge to him. Now, this isn’t the first time that that Pen has been challenged to a debate and he declined them in the past. And I actually um look at some of these challenges. And I agree with Pen because a lot of times that these are presented as an anonymous christian on a Youtube thing and it wants to be a written debate. Well, Pen, I’m just an average guy. I don’t have a PhD, I don’t I don’t know all of these evidences and I would like to debate you and I’d be happy to fly to Vegas and have a debate where we discuss the existence of God. My website is proof that God exists dot org. You’ve just written a book called God, No, we have polar opposite views. And it doesn’t have to be a formal debate. But I would like to just get on a stage with you in front of an audience where we can express our views. And and I’d love to be able to meet you. And you know what Pen, Even if we just go for lunch and not have a debate, I’d like to do that. But I think it would be a great idea if the two of us got together and debated these issues. You can look at my website, you can look at my qualifications. I am just a dude with a website and you have no reason to be intimidated by what I say and I don’t have any reason to be intimidated by intimidated by what you say. Let’s just get together and and debate this issue, wow. So an open debate there. It’s a pen, Jillette penn, I’d encourage you to, to take him up on that. I wanna come, I wanna come check that out. And I’d love to meet you and I’d love to come to your show man. You guys do some really neat stuff and then you do some stuff. Obviously that wouldn’t want to take my wife. I think I’ll be walking out of that show unfortunately. Hey, we’ll be, we’ll watch all the magic tricks and learn our illusions and learn how to do this because I love that stuff growing up, I’ve always, I’ve been involved in that. Okay, so why? Um, why is this so important? And why don’t churches see exactly what’s going on here? What is it that they’re getting deceived by? How are they so easily deceived? Well, I think that they’re, they’re relieved in having somebody from the other side and atheists actually tell christians what they should be doing and they’re so excited by this message that they put it out there, not realizing the undertone in that message is that there is no God. So like I said, he’s really mocking us when he does this, he’s complimenting us. And then he’s, you know, taking are trying to take our feet out from under us by saying yes, you should be doing this, but there really is no God, you know? And what I want to stress is that everybody knows that God exists, and that’s the kind of thing that I want to talk about him in this debate, because he’s saying that everybody is an Atheist, we’ve seen other videos where he said stuff just like that. So we have polar opposite views, and surely to average guys can get together in front of an audience and discuss these issues and and people can actually see which world view has a foundation. What’s what’s his motivation when he says that christians should proselytize, what does he think, then? What the message is he putting across that their motivation should be in order to proselytize? Well, you know, I think that he doesn’t mind getting that amount of truth out there, because it’s absolutely true that christians should be proselytizing, and he’s actually proselytizing for Atheism, which is inconsistent with atheism, right? That’s what I keep wondering, is if atheism is true and this world does not matter, and our thoughts are just a bunch of random chemicals that just, you know, do whatever they do, and that’s what produces our thoughts then ideas don’t matter, you know, this whole where did we come from? It doesn’t matter, you’re gonna die, and that’s the end. I mean, if everything really came from a big bang, if everything really evolved and we’re just evolved primordial soup, then nothing you do or say will ever matter at all. You’re not gonna, you’re not gonna do some great thing with your thoughts and your ideas and and why change somebody who’s religious to try to convert them to Atheism, if that’s something that they think helps them, and that’s the way their brain is fizzing and then just let their brain fizz that way. Yes, well, of course, that’s not the attitude of the new atheists, we can call them. That was the attitude of the atheists in the past, but the new atheists are whole breed of what might call fundamentalist atheists in a sense, and that do believe in proselytizing. So, so Dawkins says, well, you know, you can believe in what you like, but what actually matters is the truth. And of course, as far as he’s considered the truth is that there is no God, but in one sense, were then saying that Penn Jillette is within that new Atheism, because he’s proselytizing for Atheism, but he’s doing it in a manner that is very, very different from the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins and so on. Would that be a fair. Absolutely. He’s cozying up to the christians to try and get his message across and, you know, the thing is these new atheists, they don’t mind spreading their message, but what they do seem to mind is debating people on this and, you know, I can understand why people wouldn’t want to debate a PhD in philosophy and logic or something like that, But I’m just an average guy. So I don’t see any reason why Pen wouldn’t want to take up this challenge and get together and actually talk about these issues. I’ll pay for the tickets, we will get the tickets to head out there. Now, I know there was another another challenge recently put out from a guy on Youtube saying, hey, christians, I want to understand, I’m really trying to just understand what objective morality is. You say objective morality comes from God. Uh, here’s my problem with that. Let me know what you think. And so I want to get into that. I want to show a little bit of his video and what he’s trying to do and really exposed for those of you out there, what’s really going on? Do they really believe in a in a in an objective morality? And do we believe in an objective morality? What is it that we really believe? And so if it’s all right, after this next break, I’d like to, uh, I’d like to do that, would that be okay? That sounds good? I think that that’s a thing that a lot of the new Atheists are starting to do. I see it creeping more and more into what they’re saying is that they’re actually trying to trick christians into believing that they don’t actually believe in absolute morality and say, can you please give us some evidence for this? Absolute morality when in fact they do know that absolute morals exist. So I found that that trend to be the case, that that they’re saying things that they don’t believe in order to try and convince christians to enter the debate when we’re saying that you cannot even debate without starting with God, wow! Well, after this break, we will take a look at a little clip from that and expose the truth of objective morality. Be right back. Mhm Okay, beginnings is a creation experience for small groups, churches and individuals from all walks of life. Creation speaker eric Hoven explores the age old questions of life, the evidence for a young earth and how dinosaurs fit in with the bible. The included guide provides an introduction to each lesson, creative challenges, great discussion questions and practical ways to apply each lesson to everyday life to order this DVD go to www dot creation store dot org. Welcome back to Creation today. We’re talking with sights and broken kate and paul uh almost called you paul baird and paul taylor about about this whole idea of the greatest illusion ever told with Penn Jillette wanted to get into it really, a video that I found interesting is somebody was questioning objective morality. Theist say there is an objective morality, there’s an objective law and that comes from God, He is saying in this video isn’t that just a uh isn’t that just a larger scheme, subjective morality to whatever God wants? So, let’s talk about this also, um uh sai you you did a program recently with with an atheist Justin Schieber, that’s not Bieber not Justin Bieber right now. Justin Schieber and your whole thing on this video is a great dialogue pretty deep though, into the into the intellectual uh level to tell us about that and where people can watch that or you want to mention something that they can also watch that on my website? It’s the multimedia page and it’s my exchange with Justin Schieber. Now, the interesting thing about my exchange with Justin is that he has the same problem that the fellow from this clip that we’re about to play has, he’s trying to disassociate um the standard of morality with the character of God. He wants to know if God is subject to the standards and what I say is that God is subject to his character, but perhaps we can play that quote and listen to that fellow and give him an answer. Here’s the question that he asked, let’s let’s check this out and then we’ll come back and talk about is their objective morality or just a larger picture subjective morality watch this is God bound to anything or bound by anything. Is there an absolute morality that God is incapable of breaking Now that video was produced by someone on youtube called non stamp collector, That isn’t very, very interesting name? It comes from the idea that I’ve seen another atheist websites and videos that people accuse atheists of being atheism of being a religion. They claim it isn’t a religion in the same way that non stamp collecting is not a hobby, except they go around telling people don’t collect stamps, don’t collect stamps. That’s right. They have conventions in places like Copenhagen and they come up with manifestos and morality. Well, so non stamp collector, we disagree. You do have a non stamp collecting religion, methinks, they protest too much. But the question that’s that’s being asked there is really to do with this, this question of morality and whether God is justified in certain actions and he gave us an example places in the in the bible where I suppose you’d be thinking about where Elisha sets the wild bears on people and I’m saying that’s just about the most vicious and cruel way of being killed. What’s God doing in that particular situation? And is God actually submitting to his own level of morality saying that, okay, if if God did it there, then what’s wrong with the romans losing wild animals on the christians, that’s not immoral because God did it. Therefore it is morally okay, And we were talking about this the other day, and really you brought up a point side that said, you know, if that person’s daughter had been raped and murdered, would they think that that was an okay way for the murderer or for the one who did those acts to die, would nothing would be too bad. Would that be releasing wild animals on Hitler? If we were able to do that, would that be too bad for Hitler? And really, I know we want to bring out a couple of points here, but really one of the things we do in this, we are underestimating our sin before a holy and righteous God, All of us, we we deserved way worse than being ripped apart by wild animals, We deserve hell, that’s how bad it is, that’s how bad our sins are before Almighty God. So I see what he’s saying here, but you wanted to bring up another point about this. So people are confusing the action with the justice of God. Now, God of course, is just in doing whatever he chooses to do, but what God chooses to do is within his character and God is bound by his moral character. And we discussed this on the third debate with paul that that stealing is is not wrong because your neighbors get mad because you deprived him of property, stealing is wrong because God is not a thief. And we’re created in his image. So it’s not some arbitrary command that makes stealing wrong, that makes sin wrong. These things are wrong because they’re based on the unchanging character of God. Now that’s something that Justin kept bringing up, he was saying, well hold on, is it God’s character that makes it wrong, or is it whatever decides God, whatever God decides is wrong, right? And I tried to express, tried to stress to him that these things are inseparable, it’s just like saying is water, is wetness subject to water, or is water subject to witness their inseparable, God is moral, God is logical. And in that discussion there’s a fellow named chris bolt of choosing hats dot com and he took apart this conversation in six parts and he did a podcast about it and he’s a lot smarter than I am. So he can explain the issues that Justin was having and explain the points that I was trying to make it better than I do. And the beautiful thing about this is that exchange that you and I had on the pallbearers podcast, chris bolt is doing the same thing right now, I’m loving it, he’s gone through two parts so far. So if you want to check out his podcast, six episodes on the talk you had with Justin and two so far on the round four, I guess you could call it of that unbelievable debate where we talked to, I love it because chris bolt is making us sound smart. I know he remember listening to the first part and he goes, what eric just did here was reducto ad absurdum what you were thinking, what did I do, but basically he was saying, hey that’s the technical term for reducing that argument to absurdity. And really that’s that’s which of course is proverbs 26 verse five. Yeah, answering the fool according to his folly, so that he’s not wise in his own eyes showing him how foolish he is, exposing that foolishness. Which is what we want to do with Pen Jillette and we don’t mind doing that with mr non stamp collector either, do we? Okay, so uh is is there an objective morality answer that question. Here’s his question is God bound by anything. And is there an absolute morality? Absolutely. Of course there is. Even in his video, if you watch it in its in its entirety, he’s assuming that ripping people apart by wild animals is wrong. He’s making a value judgment based on his presupposition. Yes. And that’s quite important, isn’t it? With the episode that I mentioned with Elisha, because the first site, you know, one of the accusations thrown as well, Elisha set the bears on them all called down that this this this punishment from God because they shouted baldy at him. And I think that’s just but of course what they were actually doing because of the particular status that Elijah had at that time, what was known is that they were really mocking God. And it’s very clear when you read the context that that’s what it is, it’s an actual attack on God that was being dealt with, not an attack on the person of Elisha and his particular physical appearance, but it was an actual mockery of God and his word. One thing one thing I stressed with unbelievers to, if you think that was bad, stick around, wow. See this is an indication of God’s wrath towards those who reject him. So, I mean this is an indication that people should be afraid of what’s to come, Wow. So is there an objective morality? Of course, there is an objective morality and we are going to be judged by God’s objective moral standards to 10 commandments. If you’ve never seen how you’re going to do on that quiz, go to creation today.org and check out are you a good person? I’d encourage you to do that. Well that is our show today. I want to thank Sai for joining us again coming down to Pensacola and joining us. If you have questions, you can send them into questions at Creation today dot org. Of course you can follow us on twitter at Creation today and facebook facebook dot com slash Creation today, we’ll do remember please to tune into each episode, Get them podcast on Itunes or wherever you get hold of them, they’re archived online at Creation today dot org. Well, this has been a production of God Quest Ministers, Thank you so much for joining us, Sai, I hope they enjoy checking out your website, proof that God exists dot org. And of course there’s some great resources available at the Creation Store dot org. God bless.