What Do People in Israel Believe about Genesis?

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Eric and Paul interview Gabriel. They also talk about the sources of water that formed the Flood.

 

 

the following program is made possible by the friends and partners of God Quest ministries. What do people in Israel believe about genesis? It is their book, you know, from the Creation today’s studio in Pensacola florida, I’m Erica Van and I’m joined by paul taylor and today we’re going to be discussing about how much water is needed for a global flood to happen. And we’re going to have a special guest with us as well all the way from Israel mr Gabrielle Geffen, and we’re going to hear about his ministry. I’m looking forward to that. If you have questions, we’ve got answers, send him into questions at Creation today 0.0 R G and we’ll be more than happy to answer those. Remember, we believe the bible is literally true and scientifically accurate in every detail. Welcome to the Creation today show we’ve got a great show for you today, answering a really good question about the flood and a special guest gonna be joining us all the way from Israel. Uh so I’m looking forward to that. Uh some announcements though, to start off with man, this proof of God conference coming up is gonna be incredible, isn’t it? It’s gonna be great and remember you can you can register for that, you need to be registering for it as soon as possible and so you need to go to prove conference conference dot com. We’ve got some great people speaking at that conference, incredible! I’m so excited about this conference and people are starting to talk about it on facebook and things like that. So I’m really excited about what’s going to happen at the proof of God conference, we’ve got Mark Spence from where the master gonna be there. That’s right. And carl Kirby is going to be there from reason for hope. That’s right. We’ve got a sighting Bruggen Cate from Sinners ministers and we’ve got you were gonna be there and other Creation Ministry is going to be there as well. So exhibiting a lot of their material. We hope you can join us for the proof of God conference in Orlando florida on october 12th. It’s gonna be a great time. We had a question come in, I’m gonna throw this into you. I love this question. It’s got some false assumptions in it. But here we go, Darren writes in, by the way, Darren, thank you for writing into the show. How do you explain a global flood when it’s physically impossible due to the volume of water required. I calculated that the earth’s volume would have to consist of all the oceans. Plus it would have to be made mainly of water and not uh mineral to achieve the enormous volume of water required. There simply is not enough water available for the global flood. It just couldn’t have happened. And he knows that you might say underground lakes, but you’re wrong. Even an underground lake, the size of America to the depth of 15 miles would only cover the surface of the earth to a few meters, calculate the volume for yourself using pi it’s high school stuff. Any particular pie? I know I like cherry pie. Apple pie is great. My mom used to make it nothing like sugar over the peach cobbler though. I got to tell you that takes my cake, what does that have to do with the question pie? Okay, is there enough water to flood the entire world? Well, the thing is, you know, with, with, with respect and what you need to remember is if you’re going to tell us that you can’t that that, that we’ve calculated this wrong, it would be nice if you would include your calculation so we can see what you’re talking about. But actually it isn’t the case. We, we know from what scripture says that after the flood there would be the mountains rising up the ocean, trenches lowering and that accommodates the amount of water. In fact, the um amount of water on the earth is very great. The earth is actually covered to the surface area. The earth is covered by 70% water and there’s a considerable amount of water there. Now I’m very old eric, I’m a bit older than you are and I remember back in the mists of time when televisions just broadcast in black and white. I remember when television broadcast in black and white, I don’t know whether that’s because where my parents were just too mean to buy colored tv license, but it’s I remember in those days there was a broadcaster from France called Jacques Cousteau. Now I’ve asked audiences in the United States about him. Did do you remember him? And they apparently you had was incredible. He was a diver and he used to do these amazing programs from under the sea. And one of the things he pointed out that is that if you were to take all the high mountains and you were to put them into the ocean trenches as it is today, I mean this man was not a believer, but you have to take the mountains and you were to put them in the ocean trenches that actually the earth would be covered to a depth of well over a mile, wow. Well over a mile. So the earth was smooth. There’s enough water to go over for a mile deep right now. Now, in fact, of course we don’t, we don’t need that much because according to scripture, the mountains were covered by 15 cubits of water approximately 21 ft of water. So we didn’t need a mild depth of water, but there’s plenty. So what’s his mistake? He’s making the categorical mistake of probably saying, well if Mount Everest is this tall then and the water had to be that high. And that’s really the problem, isn’t it? That’s right. That is the problem. And yet we know that there are plenty of marine fossils on the top of Mount Everest. So even secular geologists acknowledge that Mount Everest must have been covered by water at some time. The point is, Mount Everest did not have to be as high as it is now. Or maybe even exist at the time when it was covered by water so that marine fossils could could be produced there. So his problem. Your problem Darren. Just if I can get right to it is your presupposition, you’re presupposing that water would have to go above Mount Everest or you know, above any of the mountains. But that’s the tallest. I’m assuming that was what you used in your high school mathematics, but you’re assuming that it had to be above Mount Everest. You’re assuming that Mount Everest was there at the time. And according to scripture it probably wasn’t. I mean the mountains rose during the time of the flood, the ocean basins sank down, the mountains rose up. It was a incredibly cataclysmic. Is that the right word? Cataclysmic event that took place when God destroyed the world with a flood. I’m never sure whether it should be cataclysm or catastrophe. There’s a difference between the two words and a cataclysm is obviously a major disaster that’s happened. Whereas catastrophe is that wiggly thing that comes before letter S But but the thing that you need to remember Darren is that is that you cannot assume that what has gone on in the past is the same as what happened in the present. And this is a scriptural principle is what we read in second Peter chapter three that scoffers believe that everything has continued as it has since the beginning of creation. That is not the case. So the sort of scientific processes that we measured today, there is no reason to suppose that they have all been occurring at that point in the, you know, you look at the Himalayas and you see there’s an enormous mountain range there probably produced by some sort of some sort of collision as 22 plates collided. The question is, how could you produce such a mountain range if those plates are moving at the speed that they’re moving today? And the answer is you can’t imagine moving so slowly and crashing and producing that they don’t do it. But that’s the point. If you’ve got a massive seismic activity at the beginning of the flood, the fountains of the deep opening up, you’ve probably got things happening at a tremendous rate. Those plates moving very, very rapidly indeed. So the collision of those would produce the mountain range. And it makes sense. It makes sense when you start with the presupposition that what God says is true. He knows he was the one who was there. It doesn’t make sense if you don’t start with God. And that’s the problem. Now, this is this is typical of many questions that we get trying to argue against creation or against Christianity is they’re basically trying to say. Um hey, here’s a problem. That’s why this won’t work. But a lot of times their question or their argument assumes something that’s not correct. That’s right. And that’s that’s the, that generally is the problem with a lot of the question. And also, you know, assuming something’s not correct. That’s that that’s true. Not necessarily assuming something that other people don’t believe is correct though. The point is you assume that a scientific idea that certain scientists have had, it must be true simply because people in white coats have said it’s true, hey, how can there be only 6000 years old? We know dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. That’s right. Categorical mistake of assuming something to be true and therefore you think that invalidates something. So that seems to be the problem. Absolutely right man. Hey, we got more questions and we got a special guest that we really wanna introduce in this next segment. It is amazing what he has done, his minister, he travels around the world to different cultures and uh wants to educate people on jesus christ. So I’m looking forward to that. I want to remind you that the answer to this question that we just talked about about the flood and other answers are discussed and the answer book, which is a great resource. I recommend every christians have and we can get that from Creation store dot org and a good friend of ours frank Sherwin did the ocean’s book if you want to know a little bit more about that. So I’d encourage you to check those out. Alright, stay tuned. We’ll talk to our special guest from Israel right after this, Welcome back to the Creation Today’s show, we’re sitting down with Gabrielle Geffen and uh inhabitant of Israel, I had the privilege of knowing him back in longview texas when my dad was a teacher at the school there. Um and then after that after high school, you actually moved back to Israel and have been living there, is that correct? Tell us a little bit about you and your ministry, you get to travel around the world. Uh and I I wanted you got so many good stories to share. We’ve only got time to share a few of them, but tell us what you do. Well, one of the ways I like to describe what I do is uh defend indigenous tribal people from missionaries, defend indigenous tribal people from missionaries. Wow! Well, on the onset, I don’t know what you’re thinking paul, but I’m going, that sounds interesting. Um let me tell you this is what comes to mind when you say that, it sounds like you’re saying, hey, um protect them from people coming in and trying to introduce a Western cultural Christianity to a totally different nation. That’s part of it. That’s part of it. Explain that real quick then. So well, I’m I’m defending them from the kind of missionary who brings in the message of jesus as a clash of civilizations that is there to conquer them and to replace their heritage, wow, is that, that’s what you find typically happening with missionaries. They want to, they probably wouldn’t even see it as that would, they don’t know, they’re, they’re probably doing out of ignorance and this is happening around the world, missionaries all over the world. So Christianity is actually being used in a way to conquer a culture rather than introduce jesus. Is that what you’re saying? Are you able perhaps to give us a sort of short example of the sort of thing that you’re, you’re talking about that. Um, sure, I could give many examples, I guess a very common thing that comes to mind is um, is a musical traditions. Right? So people have a few particular kinds of instruments that might be unique to their culture, have a particular style of singing, maybe a particular style of folk dance or something. And, and they use these cultural expressions, to, to, to tell their stories, to uh, communicate their history to their Children, to, to express their love to one another. And well, they may also use some of these instruments and styles of singing um, in religious ceremonies. So, and then, well, as is most often the case they believe that when they sing in that way or dance in that way, that whoever it is to whom they’re singing comes and they come and they inhabit that dance or the drum or the drummer or whatever it is, and so whether they’re, they’re focusing uh this this song on uh spirits or ancestors or whatever it might be, they believe, they come and inhabit that. But isn’t that in some ways what the scripture tells us in psalm 22 where it says in Hebrew, Israel for you, the Holy One are enthroned in the praises of Israel, I’m glad you’re telling us that King David was not sat at a pipe organ playing out of the baptist hymnal. Well, and that is that is, I do find that somewhat frustrating as um many missionaries think of going in and introducing their hymnal and its three songs and a sermon and and it’s a, it’s a buffet style, we’ve got to get together for a buffet, all the baptist missionaries out there and and I’m not trying to be mean to you guys. That’s right. So it’s, it’s actually introducing jesus without trying to conquer them with our ways. It’s not about introducing Michael w smith to a to a to a culture, it’s about introducing jesus christ, that’s true missions. So the example we have in psalm 22 of the Lord inhabiting the praises of his people um is a universal principle, I believe. So the Lord not only inhabits the praises of Israel only, but he will inhabit the praises of any people who offer those praises to him. So just like the tribal person believes that if they are doing this, say for an ancestor or for some spirit and that spirit comes, if they will redirect their worship to the one true God and creator of us all, he also will come. And so that’s the, that’s the work of the Messenger of jesus is to help the people in redirecting their worship to the one true god and creator of us all not to come in and strip away and say you’re no longer allowed to sing in that way, you’re no longer allowed to play that kind of instrument right? The missionary comes in and says well you can’t play that kind of drum anymore right? So they bring in some Yamaha drum from from japan made by Buddhists or they just say get rid of your drums altogether because and that does happen there now there are certain things because we’re gonna get emails about what, what’s what’s being said right here. Uh there are certain things that um you would have to forsake, I mean as if you’re gonna introduce jesus and somebody in that culture accepts jesus christ as their savior, There could be things in their culture that you can no longer take part of. I mean there will always be, but what I’m saying is that if there are that, that people themselves need to discover that for themselves. So that through the learning of jesus to the teachings in some ways the messenger of jesus uh will allow them or give them the freedom to make their own mistakes. Um now that’s interesting because before the show, we were talking about Muslims and you actually um have talked to several Muslims about, about jesus and this fascinated me because you actually end up using kind of a priest oppositional approach if you will to reaching them, because you end up taking them to the Torah and showing them what the Torah says about the scriptures about the bible. So take so showing them that in the Koran, their own sacred text that they are told over and over and over to live according to the Torah at that scabbard and the NGO, which is the Torah, the psalms and the gospels, and it’s something that Muslims don’t do and yet they’re told to do this over and over and over in the Koran, also in the Koran, you have many contradictory statements, some which are denying the virgin birth or the crucifixion of the resurrection, but there are also statements in the Quran that affirm the virgin birth and the crucifixion and the resurrection, but it’s in the later writings and the interpretive writings of and the Sunnah and other writings of the um the muslim leaders in in which the emphasis is put on those few statements in Karen that deny those things, so it is true that Islam denies those things, um and yet in the original scripture of the of the Koran, which they say they believe and uphold it also affirms those things. So one is able to direct them to those places where the firm those things and to show them where they are directed over and over and over to live according to the tour of the psalms and the Gospel. So when you start introducing them to that, when you start introducing them to the Gospel, that’s when, that’s when they are able to be shown the messiah, jesus, they are well, they Islam believes that jesus is the messiah. Now they have a different understanding of what that means. Call him, he’s Almasy, the messiah, they also call him, believe it or not the word of God, they believe he’s the word, they believe he’s coming again, but they do have a different understanding of the character of God and I believe according to scripture, a deficient view of the fullness of jesus and that’s what the messenger of jesus brings to them, wow, this is this is fascinating, A totally different way to approach Muslims using the presupposition of apologetics, I want to know what cultures around the world, think about the genesis account, how how does it relate to the creation? Well, we’ll come back right after this break, if you can stick around and talk about what cultures around the world think about genesis join Erica bain and paul taylor from creation today dot org, along with carl Kirby of reason for hope ministries, Mark Spence of the way of the master inside 10 Bruggen cate of proof that God exists dot org. For the proof of God. Conference in Orlando florida. For more information, visit proof conference dot com. That’s proof conference dot com. Or call toll free 18774793466. Welcome back, You’re watching the Creation today show with me, paul taylor and with eric and we’re talking to our special guest today, Gabrielle, Gavin and Gabrielle. We you’ve got a website that people can find out information about your ministry and if I can pronounce this right, it’s dot com, is that right? Dot com? That spelled S H L I C H u t dot com. You’ll see that on the screen. And there’s an article you wrote as well in the May june edition of mission from tears that you’ve been looking at and you’re talking about jesus movements for jesus in cultures around the world. Before the break, you were just beginning to talk a little bit about what’s what the coroner said about jesus and about presenting jesus in the, in the in that sort of context, you want to sort of elaborate a little bit more on, on what you were talking about as we went into the break about jesus and in the muslim world. Sure. Well, yeah, so the point is that the message of jesus, we should be seeking to communicate jesus to each people in a way that as it were affirms who they are as a people um and that empowers them to, to restore, to heal, to improve, to perfect um the community that they’re already in. So rather than bringing the gospel as a clash of civilizations that conquers and replaces who they are bringing in as something that heals and improves who they are and through the teachings of jesus empower them to renew it from within. So that would be your advice to missionaries watching right now is follow that bring that message to them renew their culture. Don’t don’t come at war or clash with the culture, come into the culture and introduce jesus christ. Now if if God has made the world which we know he has. Um and I mean we’ve talked a lot on this program about the sort of cultural issues, about, about things about God being known in different cultures, things about creation and about the flood being, you know in different places and if that’s, so then there’s there’s going to be elements however twisted they may be in different cultures of the world. It’s obviously changed in some ways. Could you give us some examples of that as to how a culture may know something about the true god, but it’s perhaps changed a little bit over time and well over the course of the last 29 years based out of Jerusalem traveling the world, working with indigenous tribal people, I’ve worked among somewhere around 500 different tribes and languages in more than 90 different countries and in every, in every tribal culture I have encountered so far, I’ve discovered that they already believe in a creator who made the whole world. So they might also believe in multiple spirits or ancestors or whatever it is. They might direct some of their uh prayers toward um, but they do believe in a creator who made the whole world. So as someone coming in from the outside, you might hear them talk about more than one being or more than one power and you go, okay, wait a minute, but uh, which one made the whole world? Oh, that’s quite so, and so that’s really, it’s, there’s no question there is one creator, wow. So obviously in Israel, there’s one creator among, among Judaism well, or is there more, I mean, yeah, that’s I’m going. And according to romans one, everybody knows that God exists. We were discussing those passages 1, 18 to 21 everybody realizes God exists. And so 90 different countries, lots of different cultures, they know God, they know they know that there is a creator, each of these, every single tribal culture I’ve ever visited already believes that there is a creator who made the whole world. Now. Biblically, we would have to say that other if they serve other gods, those would be idols according to David. You know, there’s one, the Lord, I’m the Lord, uh and all the other gods of the people are idols. Yes. And in most cases, there there would be, especially with tribal people, there would be a belief in my multiple spirits or ancestors, but they wouldn’t see those as being God’s in the Western people to find a god, but they would be splitting maybe loyalty or splitting uh prayer or looking to multiple beings um to to provide their needs. And so the messenger of jesus that comes in um is commissioned with uh bringing this new focus, singular focus, focus, the one true god and creator of us all. And so helping them to redirect their focus and their hope toward the one god rather than spirits and ancestors and all right. So what did you think about genesis? And what, what is there, I mean, is that obviously this is your culture. So, I mean, it’s from there. They agree with it. Okay, so the book of genesis actually in Hebrew is which means in the beginning and it of course, is of course the jewish book written by jewish and it’s it’s more than just the story of creation. It’s also very much our history and it’s a book that documents the creation of our nation out of Abraham and his Children. Um so it’s very it’s a very personal history that we do affirm, and uh and we do believe the record of creation as recorded in those first few chapters. Um and we were at the same time, we recognize it as being our perspective, our story of creation with ourselves in some ways, as the target of that story. So it’s it’s very personal, it’s a very personal story for our people. So are you more special to God than I am as a jew? No. So in God created a nation out of Abraham and in preparing that nation to receive his son. Um uh you could say in some ways, Israel is uh was chosen for a task really chosen as a nation of communicators. Um but also you could say that any, any follower of jesus anywhere in the world is also called to be a communicator. So how are you guys doing at that as far as is also chosen? So, Israel is a chosen nation. And yet not the only chosen Israel, you could say it’s the first chosen how our cultures around the world doing then with receiving, like do cultures around the world agree with genesis. They say, okay, we do have one god. So most cultures in the world don’t even know genesis exist. I’m serious. There are nearly 7000 living languages in the world and every single one of them represents at least one ethno linguistic uh culture, which is specific and unique to one people, one place, you know, one land, one history, one culture and most of them have no idea genesis exists. That is amazing. I’m gonna enjoy time after the show here talking with Gabriel. But that is our time for today. If you want to get in touch, if people wanna get in touch with you, go to the website dot com and that is our show. Oh man, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate it. This is a minute production of God quest ministries. If you have questions, you can send them into questions at Creation today dot org. You can catch us on twitter as well. Member at Creation today. We’re on facebook facebook dot com slash creation today. That’s right. So thank you for watching God bless you. This program is available on DVD by visiting creation store dot org or by calling 877479 34 66. To order this episode, used the item number displayed on your screen.

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