One woman’s quest to know God results in a changed lifestyle.
that’s right misconceptions, I’ve had them, you’ve had them, in fact you and I may have even been responsible for a few of them getting loose out there in the world. Some misconceptions are harmless, but there are some that are extremely painful and maybe even devastating today on the way of the master, we want to clear up a few of those misconceptions, misconception. Number one christians hate homosexuals, misconception misconception. Number two, those who are living in the homosexual lifestyle can’t really ever change misconception today, joining me as always, is a great comfort Mark. Spence guys, this is a hot issue, there’s no doubt about it and as I just said right now in my little monologue, there are a lot of misconceptions, those are two of the main ones that I just shared, but there are a lot more connected to the subject. Now, both of you have been sharing the gospel for years, whether it’s been 1-1 or open air preaching. How often before we jump into the misconception specifically, how often does this subject come up and how do you guys address it? Well, it’s much more prevalent than it was when I was a a new christian many years ago, there was a guy in Christchurch new Zealand who was homosexual, he was a celebrity, you know, his name was Leonardo and I remember a surf shop, he walked across the street along the sidewalk and it was the talk of the town because it was such an unusual thing for someone to be a homosexual nowadays, it’s everywhere and I’ve learned not to be shocked when I say, have you ever lusted after a woman? A guy says, no, I say, are you a homosexual? He says, yes, I’ll just carry on because it’s so prevalent today. And it’s something we have to deal with because we don’t hate homosexuals. We’d like to write that across the sky. We love them and we want to see them in heaven because we care about them. Yeah, I think we’ve seen the two extremes, right? We’ve seen those who have given life to that misconception, who hold signs that say God hates expletive. And we know that there are others though, on the other side who don’t even want to talk about it because they’re afraid of being labeled as haters. And that happens often. I mean, there are christians who have experienced some serious ramifications because they’ve spoken up, we want to strike the right chord here in that we’re not going to avoid something that God’s word talks about. And on the other hand, we’re going to act like christians who are called to love everybody. And so Mark speak to that, if you would. Well, when I’m open air preaching and somebody from the crowd says, how do you feel about homosexuals? It’s usually asked in a tone to try to incite the crowd. It’s not because somebody has been thinking through working through struggling through something at that situation, You know? So when something like that arises, I say, well, I feel the same way about homosexuals as I do heterosexuals, I love them all. And I’d love to see both homosexuals and heterosexuals, those who are living contrary to what God has designed sexuality to be. I want them to repent right, fornication, sex outside of marriage is wrong. And I think that we want to hone in on this because it’s so accepted within our society that we, we just need to be careful and delicate on how we go about doing it. And I like how you pinpointed that misconception number one, which is, do christians hate homosexuals? Absolutely not right. You’re homophobic because I feel differently. It’s ridiculous. We need to bring it back to its root cause we need to deal with what it is. I remember once we did an episode on homosexuality and we went to West Hollywood to film and we were nervous because there’s this misconception we’re talking about that we were going to be labeled homophobic or hate hates people. That’s why we produced, um actually it went really good in West Hollywood. We had a great time because we witnessed Biblically. We used the law to bring the knowledge of sin. That’s why we produced audacity on the subject of homosexuality to show that we love homosexuals. That was what came out. And what was the the the catchphrase that you’ve thought of love can’t stay silent. Love can’t stay silent. That was the motivation because because we care. Um when audacity came out I looked at the I. M. B. I. M. B. D. The international um data in a database and a whole stack of atheists and homosexuals have gone in and given it a one star in fact 1817 gave it a one star and the rest was 289 2000 and 89 gave it a 10 stars. And so it ended up four stars. But the sad thing was those were put on before the movie came out because they had this misconception that we hate homosexuals and we don’t remember an atheist who was pro gay went to the premiere and he loved it. He said I’ve never heard of a christian movie like this? This was wonderful. He actually gave us a commendation because it was so filled with love. Yeah and and there’s a misconception on the other side that christians think homosexuals hate them, don’t want to have anything to do with them. And we’ve been delighted on so many occasions when people within that community have been very welcoming and very open, very humble and receptive. And so misconceptions about, like I said, we’ve talked about the misconception regarding christians hating homosexuals but what about change? Can someone in the homosexual lifestyle actually come out of it genuinely and live a heterosexual lifestyle. So for that we want to go to a video of someone that we had the privilege of meeting who came to one of our academies, in fact, and she’s going to share her story with us. I had a pretty crazy college life. I was definitely a partier. My favorite place in the whole world to be was the L G B T I A center and I would sit on panels in various classes to advocate for support of the gay lifestyle. My partner’s mom was a devout christian and she invited us to church every week for I think a couple of years and we would go, it was a really big church nearby and there were definitely times when homosexuality was mentioned in the sermons, you know that it’s a sin and need to repent and get right with the Lord and I would have panic attacks in the pews. I didn’t want to hear that, but I would sit there and pretend like I was fine. Like it didn’t affect me at all. I worked really hard at twisting the scriptures to try to make myself feel better, but I still couldn’t get around what it actually says and it’s very plain Mhm. One night after christmas, I was on my way to a New Year’s Eve party and I decided because I was in the neighborhood to stop by my partner’s mom’s house was going to drop off a gift for her. So I let her invite me in and I sat down and she looked at me with tears in her eyes and she said, please just imagine yourself standing before jesus christ the king of kings and Lord of Lords on the judgment day and think to yourself what you’re going to say to him when he asks you what you’ve done with his word. And I I was speechless and and instead of going to that New Year’s Eve party, I parked my car under a street lamp and I opened up my bible and I started praying and crying out to God even though I didn’t know what kind of future I was going to have. Mhm. It was worth it if I could have christ for real. I think I was under the street plant for six hours reading the bible and praying and crying out to God to just make my repentance real. And the Lord met me and he was faithful and from that moment he started changing me into a new creation. All of those worries that I had been so worried about it, those were false worries because the Lord has more than supplied everything that I thought I was going to lack. I have a new family. I have a community of believers all around me that love me. I have more friends than I ever did before and I have jesus and I don’t have to fight his word anymore. I can I believe it and it changes me who, that’s a tear jerker. Yeah, and genuine. You know, I think it truly is an insult to those who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle. For people to say to them, there is no way you could have really changed. And it really actually, in a sense is somewhat hypocritical because there is that perception that hey, don’t tell people what they can and can’t be. And yet that’s exactly what’s happening in that regard. You know, people often say, you know, because they have these feelings since they were very little. It now naturally follows for somebody to think I was born this way and if I was born a certain way, that means I can’t change things can’t happen or it must be natural. Um, listen, regardless of the way you were born, scripture says, you must be born again. And if any man is in christ, he’s a new creature, a new creation appealed all things have become new. And just because you may have a propensity to do something, You know, for example, somebody say, well, I was born with the desire to want great things and because I’m not very smart and earning these things myself, I have a propensity just want to take something that belongs to somebody else. So I’m just going to steal that. I’m a covetous individual. I was born that way. Well, why can’t I just take that which belongs to somebody else. I was born that way. And who are you to say that? It’s wrong. Yeah, right. Well, you have chaos within a society. When you go outside of the bounds of scripture, scripture makes it very clear, it’s an objective standard by which we are able to know the heart and the mind of God. So it’s best just to let God decide stay within those parameters and everything is safe, right? You know, Ray, a very famous slogan that has been circulating for many years now is love is love. And yet I’m sure you recognize that there’s an inconsistency when it comes to the application of that slogan, in terms of applying to all cases, do you see that kind of divergence there between that statement and what’s happening as an example? People say love is love, but we don’t see anyone advocating for a father marrying his daughter and that sort of thing. What do you think about that? Well, I want to pick up if I may on what Mark said about the new birth, what unsaved people, unregenerate people, non christians don’t understand is the new birth is supernatural. We’re not talking about a change of mind. We’re not talking about a change of lifestyle, We’re not talking about a change of or turning over a new leaf. We’re talking about a whole new tree. If any man be in christ, he is a new creation. Old things passed away, behold, all things have become new and it reminds me of many, many years ago, I was in the studio at a secular radio station working on something and I had a young lady with me for an hour in the studio, her name was lee wearing jeans, she had long blonde hair, very sweet. We got on great. And about two weeks later I didn’t even share the gospel with them, we’re just caught up in other things. I think if I remember rightly I was standing in the local square, someone came up and said that that lee from that secular radio station has become a christian and I said, oh that’s great for and they said, not her, him and it was lee was a he masquerading as a she and fooled me for a whole hour, I had no idea, so I thought, how am I gonna react the next time I see li am I gonna go, hey lee, that’s wonderful or Haley, good stuff. I mean, seriously, I had this dilemma of how do I handle it, We should talk different to a guy than you do to a girl. And about a month later I was sitting in church and I looked across the congregation and I saw a face that looked familiar. It just, I couldn’t put my finger on it. And as this person walked towards me, I saw that was leave her hair was cut in a manly style, A beard was pushing through and as he approached me and I had that concern of how he gave me a bear hug and slapped me on the back. And what had happened is that God had caused him to become a brand new creature in christ and the whole agenda for telling homosexuals about christ. The gospel isn’t bring them into a lifestyle, that’s the same as ours. It’s to prepare them for wrath to come. We’ve got to face God on judgment day. And if you’re living in sin, whether it be lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, your unsaved, and we want to see them in heaven. So you’re right. That motivation from us is love and love wounds of love. Kids amen. You know, I heard somebody once say, listen, I’m a homosexual and I understand you don’t have a clue what that means, what it’s like. Well, let me try to explain it to you. They said, you see that chair across the room, it’s like me telling you, you must be attracted to that chair. You’re thinking, how can I do that? I cannot do that. I find no attraction in that chair whatsoever. And so let’s make it very clear, there’s nothing wrong with attraction, its action. It’s when you act on it. And let’s put in a new word, temptation, there’s nothing wrong with temptation if temptation was a sin. Well then jesus was a satanist because he was tempted to worship satan, but he didn’t do it. So we might have these temptations that come our way. It’s only when we act on them and once they become sin. Yeah. I love the way you put that mark and it’s it’s so true. You know, and that, that I think is where a lot of, especially young people begin to head in that direction because they have a feeling they have an emotion, they have a thought and today’s society is training them to think, well then you must be this or you must be that. But again, like I was talking about earlier, the inconsistency is that People get a lot of different thoughts, emotions and desires, but they don’t advocate going in that direction. I mean, sometimes Christians are looked at and they’re told that’s just extreme. We were told that many years ago when we would give examples like this and here we are today. And we’re seeing them to where even young Children at the age of three are being given the choice to decide which gender they are. And so again, but there are things that we don’t say. If someone says, hey mom, dad, I’m five years old, I love my brother and we want to be in a relationship together, no one would advocate and say, oh, that’s okay. You know, no one would advocate and say it’s okay if you have a feeling to go out and rob banks or you have a feeling to go out and beat people up because you feel angry or no one would advocate doing that. And so for us it comes down to what does God’s word say and friends for those of you that are watching? Look, we all have an authority, and ultimately, either the authority is going to be transcendent and beyond us. Something that’s universal that applies regardless of who we are, what we think, or it’s going to be ourselves, we’re going to be our own authority. So we have to be careful, then ask ourselves, what does God’s word say? And God’s Word says that these things are contrary to God’s design and our sinful and God and his love and grace can change us and transform us by giving us the new birth and recreating us in the image of christ, All right. And on that note, then, the question is for those of you who are wondering, well, how do I engage someone who’s in the homosexual lifestyle or the transgender lifestyle? How do I enter their world? What do I say back again, is our friend Stacy, who’s going to give us some insight. I think a lot of people think it’s difficult to talk to homosexuals about christ. They think that the issue is so huge and so different and so crazy, and they have no idea how to speak about the issue, but I think that if you understand or can identify with a struggle against sexual sin or a struggle against addiction, then you have a framework for understanding and talking about homosexuality and so on that basis, we’re all not that different. Using the law is so helpful in evangelism to homosexuals when I was in that lifestyle, I was ready for that conversation. You know, you’re gonna talk to me about homosexuality in the bible. Well, but if someone had started talking to me about about lying or stealing or I would not know what to say, I would have to admit that. That’s a sin. That would be pretty convicting. Somebody talking to me about the law. And it’s an even playing field. You can see each other as equals. The person can’t look at you and say that you’re trying to act like you’re better than them, Ray, you have beat this drum for years and years and years in terms of, look, we don’t even necessarily have to get into the homosexual issue with someone speak to that. Well, I don’t really want to get into it. It’s I want to stay away from first timothy chapter one verse eight through 10 says the law. Speaking of the moral law, the 10 Commandments was made for. And it gives a list, says sinners and in that list, it says homosexuals. So you don’t have to get into the issue of homosexuality or sexual preference. All you have to do is give them the law. And by that, I mean, when someone realizes that they’ve lied and stolen and blasphemed God’s name. They’re in big trouble. They’ve got a multitude of sins. You don’t even have to mention homosexuality as part of that sinfulness because they will receive their condemned. Besides that they are waiting understandably for us to bring the issue up. They’ve got their boxing gloves on. And so you don’t want to get into a battle over that issue. And the issue is pride. When it comes, what you wanna do is humble someone before before God using the moral lords. That’s its purpose. It shows us that God is not on trial. Were on trial. Were the criminal, he’s the judge and that humbles us. And when someone has a humble spirit, then they’re more likely to receive that scripture which says do not be deceived, neither homosexuals nor adulterers nor fornication nor thieves nor inherit the kingdom of God. Yeah, amen. And and again, it’s truth. It’s the law bringing the knowledge of sin and then we come in with the gospel and with compassion. And also I will never forget. The conscience bears witness. And the conscience doesn’t back down when it comes to that one particular issue, it will condemn us for lying, stealing, fornication, adultery, and homosexuality. So we have that ally in the heart of the enemy to help try and convince the homosexual he’s in big trouble and he needs a savior. Yeah, I remember years ago interacting with someone on facebook, they had made a comment under one of my posts and I sent them a private message for clarification. And turns out they were in the homosexual lifestyle and they were very angry, very angry. And and said some harsh things about me. But I responded in love and and just share truth with them compassionately. And it was amazing to see the transformation. We had an ongoing dialogue and ended up coming out of the homosexual lifestyle and getting right with the Lord. So that compassion is huge. And Mark, I’d love for you to to speak to that you have a story about an encounter you had with someone sometime back, you know, I remember I was in Hollywood and I saw a gentleman sitting at a bench and I went up to him and I engaged in a conversation, started sharing the gospel with him and his bus came. I said, do you need to jump on the bus? And he said no. You know, But he paused before he said no. And he said, you know, I can always take the next one. And I didn’t realize how profound that was until the very end of our conversation. He was jiving with what I was saying and my eyes were glued to his eyes and he said, you know, I I realized something, you care you genuinely care about me. People on this block know that as a gay gigolo, that I desire to make money any way I possibly can. I’m here to take the bus to the santa Monica overpass and to jump off to commit suicide. That is why I’m at the bus right now. When it asked me at a bible, he said, no, I don’t have anything. I got rid of everything. It was genuine, it was legit. But what he realized at that moment was that I genuinely legitimately cared and I was just deaf and blind to everything and everybody around me because this is a precious individual who christ adores and I want to share that and that’s the key. It’s love and compassion and so friends instead of talking about it anymore, we want you to watch it in action as Ray shared the gospel with these. Few individuals believe in God’s existence. Yes. Okay. So what’s going to happen to you in the afterlife? I mean you’re going to get on the plane, you gotta get your ticket. You want to know where you’re going because there’s only two places you can go to heaven or hell and you want to make sure you go in the right place. Yes, that’s right. Okay. Yeah. Um so I think, oh, I don’t know, like, yeah, I believe in heaven and you believe in hell. Wait, no, I don’t believe in heaven or hell. I do believe there’s an afterlife, but I don’t know and there’s no one here to tell me except these books and stuff. I think there is an afterlife. I think about it much. Uh sometimes when I’m high, when you’re high? Yes, I’m pretty low. You don’t let me curious. Are you afraid of dying? Well sometimes they freak me out. Are you doing anything or thinking anything that could displease God, possibly. I think so. Yeah, guilt can be good because it accuses you of doing wrong and set you on the right path. Let me see if I can make you feel guilty, I’m gonna use the 10 commandments are going to go through them from top to bottom and you tell me when they make you feel guilty. How many lies have you told in your life? How many lives do you think you’ve told in your life plenty. What do you call someone who tells plenty of lies? A liar liar? You ever stolen something? Yes. Now you just told me you’re a lying thief. Do you still think you’re a good person? Um mm hmm. Yeah, I guess I have to say. Yes, I’m still a good person. So you think a lying thief is a good person? No, I don’t. But you’re not a good person. If you’re a lying thief, correct? If you are a lying thief then you’re not a good person if you are a lying thief, so you’re not a good person. No, I choose to be a good person. Okay. Have you ever used God’s name in vain? Have you ever used God’s name in vain? I have before. Yes. I say jesus all the time. But And you’ve used God’s name since I met you? I’ve just met you. Would you use your mother’s name as a cuss word. Mm hmm. Maybe that’s terrible. That’s a violation of the fifth commandment. Honor your father and mother. And jesus said, if you look at a woman and lust for her, you commit adultery with her in your heart, I’ve had lust. Yes. I’m like, you know, a Californian young adult, I’m like all about lust. Have you ever looked at a woman with lust? Not a woman? So you’re homosexual? Looked with lust? Yes. Have you ever looked at a woman with lust? You’re homosexual, homosexual. You’ve lusted after women. Is that what you’re telling me? No. See, homosexual. So here is a quick summation. I’m not judging you, but you’ve just told me you’re a lying thief, a blasphemer, and an adulterer at heart. So if God judges you by the 10 Commandments on judgment day, you’re gonna be innocent or guilty guilty on judgment day, you’re going to be innocent or guilty. I can’t answer that because yes, you can. You’re lying thief less femur and an adult or that you were guilty. Like the rest of us. Heaven or hell. How does that concern you? Not really? And it concerns me. I care about you. I love you. I hate the thought of you going to hell. You seem like a nice guy. Imagine being damned by almighty God he gave you life gave you eyes to see with ears to hear good music. Taste buds to enjoy good food. He gave you love and laughter. Friends and family lavished his goodness upon you and you used his name as a cuss word. He despised him and walked in. Rebellion to him. The 10 commandments are called the Moral Law. You and I broke the law, jesus came and paid the fine if you’re in court and someone pays your fine, I never even thought about it like that. If you’re in court and someone pays your fine, even though you’re guilty, the judge can let you go. You can say this guy is guilty stack of speeding fines, but someone’s paid them. He’s out of here and you can do that, which is legal and just, well, God can legally dismiss your case, forgive your sins, commute your death sentence. Let you live forever legally because of that. Death and resurrection of the Savior. Do you think christians hate homosexuals? Um, no, I won’t know. Christians wouldn’t hate homosexuals. That’s nice dear. Because we don’t a lot of crazy people hate homosexuals and we love them and we want to see them in heaven too. And so we tell them the truth that the bible says, do not be deceived. Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor adulterers, nor thieves, nor homosexuals, nor idolaters will inherit the kingdom of God. Does this make sense? Yes. You’re going to do something about your salvation. You’re going to get right with God. Yes, a bit of a hesitation there. So let me see if I can hurry you up. There’s a man who was very rich, he had a money belt on. It weighed 40 lb of stacked full of gold and he fell into the ocean and he wouldn’t take the belt off because he loved his money. He drowned because he wouldn’t let go. That’s how we are with our sins. We just don’t want to let go. It’s insane when God offers us everlasting life that would hold onto our sin. So get before God and say God, I’m so wicked. I don’t even want to let go of my sins. Would you please help me? And he will, he’ll transform you. I will grant your repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. So you gonna think about this? I will think about this. You have a bible at home. I do, yes, I do. I grew up in a christian home. Most people did in America and something went wrong. Yeah, I’m delighted that you listen to me and I’m honored that you did. And I and I, and I really hope you’ll do something about it. So great to meet you. Likewise, thank you for your words. Well, there you have it friends. We hope that has cleared up the misconceptions for you. And remember if you’re watching today and you’re in the homosexual lifestyle, There is hope for you. It’s the gospel of jesus christ. If you repent and place your faith in him, he’ll wipe your sins away, give you everlasting life and transform you. We urge you to do that today. We thank you so much for joining us. Make sure to join us again when we return next time here. On the way, The Master, we hope this episode of Wave The Master has inspired you to share the message of eternal life. You can watch our award winning movies such as the Atheist Delusion, freely on our website, or you’ll also find articles, videos, and audio messages, as well as books, dvds, gospel tracts and other resources to help you share your faith biblically, and effectively make sure to visit Living Waters dot com today.